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专题

三位女性剧场工作者访谈录

采访人:   黄素怀 – 实践剧场文学编辑(tbc)

受访者:   郭践红/Siti/苏君英

编:我们从比较在剧场跟男性合作与跟女性合作的区别开始谈吧?

Siti: For me, as a woman, naturally I find that there is a sense of togetherness. I initially thought it's going to be crazy, having more than 8 women in rehearsals that we're probably going to kill each other and all that. But it's has been the good kind of crazy! And because I don’t speak Mandarin, I thought I would not be able to understand what is going on. But I manage to somehow feel one with the group. And they make me feel very welcomed. I don’t even need to understand what they are talking about to feel that sense of togetherness. But working with men I feel that it’s more straightforward. Not to say there is no room for jokes, men are more serious. It is not a bad thing. I can feel the differences working with all male and all female casts.

君英:其实我觉得跟男跟女合作,没有太多的分别。什么样的人比什么样的性别重要。所以我可以在跟一堆什么款式都有男演员在一起工作感到很有归属感,觉得很舒服。可以跟一大堆女生在一起但觉得很不舒服。所以性别不是很关键的因素,是人。

践红:其实在剧场的很多男人都像女人,哈哈,很多女人也有男人的阳刚。所以男和女并不是那么直接分的。不同的是,比较阴还是比较阳。比如说,比较阳刚的,他们在处理事情上比较直接,比较强,比较冲,有什么事情就爆出来。但是那些比较阴柔的,感性的,内敛的,虽然不太容易交流,但是如果可以沟通的了,就能走得比较深入。所以我觉得,可能阴阳的不同,多过于男女的不同。

编:你们认为我们周围的社会里还有没有性别歧视?

践红:我觉得“歧视”很难清楚的定义。很多人觉得男人应该做男人做的事情,女人应该做女人做的事情;男人有某种反应,女人有某种反应;男人有某种责任,女人有某种责任;男人就应该扛重的东西……从自然生理上来说,确实有不同,但也不完全是。这些分类,确实存在,但是不是歧视,还得看事情本身。我反而觉得剧场是女人的天下,因为我们在相对比较保守的社会环境里,普遍认为男人必需成家立业,于是女人在一定程度上有自己的自由,反而能够做一些事情,不过说回来,有婚姻的女人要做一些事情,也因为我们的老公支持我们。所以,在比较大的框架下,我觉得性别歧视是存在的,但是在我们的工作范围内,反而是比较自由的。

君英:说到“歧视”,我发现我也“歧视”女人。最简单的讲开车,我也会说”Wah lau! Lady driver!”我居然会这么说,看到车开的很烂,我就首先会认为是女的,过去一看“天哪,真的是女人!“。所以我们在某一些事情上,自己会否定歧视自己。哈哈,我应该帮女性辩护的嘛。

践红:We should be defending the women but it’s the truth. A lot of women drivers are bad drivers, In the States, in LA, if you go to a Chinese Supermarket car park, you will know why. When you drive in the American grocery store everything is normal. When you drive in the Asian supermarket parking lot, you just want to kill somebody.

Siti: I know obviously sexism does exist in the society, there’s no escaping it. I think I’ve been fortunate because of the people I mix with, or the industry I am in doesn’t really expose me to the depth to see that.

践红:我有一些男同学,在银行工作的,他们聊天时会说”Jia Lat lah,You got lady boss ah?”他们的印象和经验是,不好做女老板的属下的。当然你可以分析说男人不喜欢给女人管,但是另一方面,女人可能在没有权利很久后得到了权利,也不好相处。所以这到底是不是种歧视?是不是种偏见?在一定程度上,如我前面说的,我们的社会很保守,男人产假三五天,女人有四个月,但是有可能有些男人比女人更适合带孩子?偏见肯定是有,在个别事情上,大家是不是能把它抛开来做决定。讲回剧场,剧场是女人的天下,尤其是新加坡的剧场。

编:我们来谈谈剧场,我们现在做一个多元文化的戏,是不是达到了剧场的多元化?什么剧场才是多元的剧场?

践红:多元的剧场定义是什么?

Siti: I think there are many elements that can make a theatre production very multi-everything- multimedia, lights etc. I think this show has a nice enough collaboration of these little things such as the use of different languages. That is already very rich. And our different ethnicity, background- that is another multi-something. What we have is the richness in simplicity.

君英:我觉得“多元”的东西其实是很好玩的,只有在新加坡我们才会一直讲多元。在台湾,我们也有各式各样奇奇怪怪的人在一起,我们从来都不说“多元”,它已经在那里了,就不用强调它,它已经根深蒂固,生活在一起了。新加坡很好玩,整天说“多元文化”,在哪里就办一个“多元文化园游会”,然后把不同种族的人参在一起。越是这样做,就越让人觉得这是不融合的,我感觉有点“此地无银三百两”。以剧场来说,不如就大胆的用英文去演,用马来文去演,因为戏里探讨的问题就是新加坡的问题,跑不掉的,所以不需要很刻意的一定要用什么人来配搭什么人,来呈现新加坡的真实的面貌,根本没有必要。

Siti: I think over-doing it would be getting the "Chinese, Malay, Indian, others" in the play, I think that would be forcing it a little with the whole multi-racial thing; I think that is a bit gimmicky. In a way I am glad that this show is not like that, it is just a coincidence these characters are such.

践红:Many years ago when I was getting married to my husband, who is a Caucasian, some people asked me about our cultural and language differences? I can probably bond better with him than the next Singaporean, who went to the same school with me, have the same education, live in the same district. One common language we have is the arts. (He is a film-maker) It is really about the story of people before the tools, or the language or the culture. One thing I am glad the playwrights didn’t do is to introduce characters in a systematic manner such as we must have a character from every 200 years… that will be a very socially correct way of thinking who these women should be.

Siti: I think that’s the reason we do theatre, is to go against what we are supposed to. For example if they ever say that every theatre production must do such and such, I may quit theatre because that’s not how it is supposed to. The reason I go into theatre is because I feel a certain sense of freedom that we can explore and do what we want to do without having being told to. Why limit creativity to fit the mould that they want?

编:对剧场,政府应该有什么作为?有什么不作为?

践红:这是一个好大的话题。我觉得剧场,有不同种,但我们想做的,是跟我们的生活有关系的剧场。它不止是在一个娱乐空间里发生了过后,跟地面完全脱离关系的剧场。如果剧场是跟生活有关系的,它有时候会可以是一个尖锐的工具,我说的尖锐不一定是理性的尖锐,也可以是一种感情的尖锐。如果让这个东西在最好的状态下发生的话,这种尖锐有时候会伤到人嘛,因为它很尖又很锐。但之所以有人会被伤到,是因为他有弱点,有痛处。一个好的剧场作品是应该刺穿层层防卫,走到核心去的。从政府的官方的态度来说,是没有安全感的。如果政府真的要剧场艺术蓬勃,就要允许尖锐的东西在发生,比必需允许我们挑战尺度。这个尺度不一定是道德尺度,任何有创意的东西都是“我有一个盒子,我破那个盒子”,它可以是道德的盒,可以是手段,手法,风格的盒,你想得到什么盒子,我就想得到怎么拆那个盒子,这样才有创意发生。如果它不能够接受我们整天去打破盒子,就没有了创意。我们总是在格中找到没格,在没格中找到有格。如果只是“有格”,就会给想要打破规律的人很大的威胁。所以最基本的,如果政府想要表演艺术存在,就要接受混乱,接受破格,接受被挑战。

编:除了不该做的,有什么是他们应该做的?

Siti: By actually watching shows and supporting works by all theatre companies, not just the big ones. They need to know who they're pumping the money to, and the good ones deserve more money!

践红: There should be no strings attached to these supports be it to companies, individuals or collectives. The example I always use is: If you build a school, you don't build it for teachers; if you build a swimming pool, you don't just build it for the sports; if you build a hospital, you don't just built it for doctors, right? So if you give funding and build a theatre, you don't build it just for artists. You also doing it for the people, everything is about people. That's all social infrastructures.

这是一个社会结构的基本需要,应该把这一些设施和结构维持在那里,让人民无论是身体的健康,精神的健康,肚子的健康都有空间。作为一个健全的国家,一个发达国家,第一世界的国家,这些都必须做到。

君英:我觉得政府应该放松,懂幽默,大家都穿着西装打着领带在那里讲绅士,可是坐在马桶上大便大家都一样。算了,干嘛那么假惺惺?他们只要放下身段,许多东西就会更容易做。做的时候不会那么敏感。不要别人讲一句话,就觉得政治不明确。没有人政治明确的!我觉得他们想的是,如果让剧场成长,让艺术成长,是危险的,因为一担人民会思考,就危险了,人民应该不带思考的顺从。

践红: We should always go and find your own recourses to do things, because if you rely on funding, you relinquish control, you see. But at the same time, if there is funding from the government, this is definitely a much deserved and needed support. I deal with the money all the time, I am always struggling to decide what are the things are important to me, what are the things are just “ok I can bear it”, so I will just go and do it and the things I will not do, no matter how much money is in it. So the government funding is only one part of the formula.

编:今天就到这里吧。谢谢大家!


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